PDA

View Full Version : Down Stream Volumes



James VanHandle
03-17-2009, 09:26 PM
Does anyone know how to get more volume through your down stream injectors? We never can get enough chems through and have to rely on our X-Jet alot.

Ken Fenner
03-17-2009, 10:23 PM
Jim, you have this in roof cleaning so I am assuming you mean to make a downsream solution strong enough for roofs.. That is probably an endeavor not worth chasing.

To answer your question directly:

Always use 150ft or less of hose. (the shorter the better)
Use an undersized fixed downstreamer
Get a YRL-50 gun from E-spec: http://www.mobicleaninc.com/?mainURL=/store/category/9xuj/Spray_Guns.html
Use a short lance

You can use a ball valve but I prefer the distance and aim of using a short lance. The goal is to make as little back pressure as is possible. Using the above combination I get ridiculous draw ratios.

precisionpower
03-17-2009, 10:45 PM
Fenner, what is ridiculous? I draw about 8-1 with my setup, so if you draw more, I'm all over it!

precisionpower
03-17-2009, 10:47 PM
Jim, to answer your question, DS'ing for a roof is definitely not realistic, unless someone knows a secret method that they aren't sharing.

OrlandoRoofCleaners.com
03-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Does anyone know how to get more volume through your down stream injectors? We never can get enough chems through and have to rely on our X-Jet alot.

James,

Give me a call sometime, if you can. DS'ing really won't work for roof cleaning unless you intend to be there all day and make nothing. I'm pretty sure that isn't your plan.

Depending on how much dedicated equipment you already have, you can get you in the game for $300 or less and the profit margins are very nice once you get it all lined out.

Thanks,
Don

James VanHandle
03-18-2009, 07:48 AM
James,

Give me a call sometime, if you can. DS'ing really won't work for roof cleaning unless you intend to be there all day and make nothing. I'm pretty sure that isn't your plan.

Depending on how much dedicated equipment you already have, you can get you in the game for $300 or less and the profit margins are very nice once you get it all lined out.

Thanks,
Don

Ok, I will call you! Im not talking about roofs i have a seperate pump for that. Just basic house cleaning is what im having a problem with. Is there a larger sized orafice that can be bought to get me more volume?

Jim Vanhandel

Ken Fenner
03-18-2009, 08:32 AM
Kevin, I have been meaning to take a video and do some actual measurements on film. As another testimony of the venturi strength, when I was first setting up the machine I put a little plug at the end of the DS line and it collapsed it. I have to come up with an actual ratio because I don't know what the line is flowing with the injector that is on there.

Jim, you should have zero problem cleaning vinyl siding. With 4 gallons of 12% and the soaps I use the mold at the bottom of the house is brown before I get finish soaping the peak. That's too strong, imo.

The way to get the highest ratio is to limit your flow by using the undersized injector and making sure everything else in your path is not limiting flow.

plainpainter
03-18-2009, 10:04 AM
I wouldn't worry about downstream ratios - I noticed I was killing mildew effectively with ratios as little as 17:1 - and that was by using a 0030 at the end of 200 feet of hose. The worst algaes are at the bottom of the house - and you use a wide open short range tip which will automatically result in a much lower {numerically} ratio that yields the strength needed.

DJ Carroll
03-18-2009, 11:15 AM
I love my Foam Washing Technology . . .aka a ball valve and double simple cheery lol :got-hooligan:

James VanHandle
03-18-2009, 12:28 PM
I love my Foam Washing Technology . . .aka a ball valve and double simple cheery lol :got-hooligan:

I quess my injector must be broken. I washed 4 homes yesterday and couldnt get this thing to pull very much at all. Im having a problem with the 8gal per min unit 150ft hose and in one hour didnt pull 1gal of soap. This is the first im trying D/S and it doesnt work very well. I want to get this thing to work because it could save us alot of time!! I put a call into the manufactor of the injector and they may send me a high volume attachment. Well see if that works. Thanks guys!!

Jim Vanhandel

Mike Schoeben
03-18-2009, 01:10 PM
Try removing any filter in your soap solution. Just go with the hose in the mix. Also your mix needs to be as strong as possible to compensate for the draw rate.

Scott Davis
03-18-2009, 01:36 PM
You SH may not be very strong.....

Jim Chesmore
03-18-2009, 03:50 PM
Jim, I dont know the physics behind "why" but for some reason the higher GPM machines draw less then the 4-5 GPM rigs. At least that is what I have read on the BB's

precisionpower
03-18-2009, 08:20 PM
As another testimony of the venturi strength, when I was first setting up the machine I put a little plug at the end of the DS line and it collapsed it.
.

Fenner, I am not sure what you are talking about on this one. What is 'venturi strength"?

James VanHandle
03-19-2009, 05:18 AM
Try removing any filter in your soap solution. Just go with the hose in the mix. Also your mix needs to be as strong as possible to compensate for the draw rate.

Big Mike,
Im using 3 gal 12% with a double load of simple cherry (16oz per 5) 2 gal water .
Jim Vanhandel

Ken Fenner
03-19-2009, 07:07 AM
Fenner, I am not sure what you are talking about on this one. What is 'venturi strength"?

This is where it would be great to have a DooLittle here. Actually Dan could also explain well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect

Mike Schoeben
03-19-2009, 09:52 AM
That should be a strong enough mix. Some other restrictions could be length of pw hose (over 150' the draw rate drops dramatically), or an obstruction in the injector itself. Pull it off and look through it. Can you see through it? If not, it's plugged. There's a venturi (small brass or stainless screwed in insert) inside the injector. Take a skinny screwdriver and back the venturi out and inspect.The hole should be nice and round, but if it looks pitted or worn, its shot. Chemicals, especially chlorine and NaOH, will eventually corrode and ruin the insert.

We use stainless Allison Suds-Sucker injectors alot, but we also use the cheap Northern Tool ones (General Pump). The key to making them last is after your done using it, pull it off the machine, and rise out any residual chemical so it doesn't sit there and eat the guts of the injector. Remeber, its a wear part, and won't last forever. We always carry a few diffent one's just in case. Also different sizes.

I've also noticed that the Simple Cherry doesn't run quite as well through an injector, and adding more might be the problem. Most powder form soaps don't dissolve as well as say, Dawn. Try mixing the Simple Cherry with water first then add Love. Use real warm water. Hope that helps.

Jim Chesmore
03-19-2009, 10:02 AM
I just remembered and easy fix to your problem. Make sure your injector is located as close to your reel as possible. If you have it connected just after your pump it will not draw very well.

Johnny T
06-24-2009, 10:47 PM
Chlorine is very caustic and can really wreak havoc on the injectors. I actually had to deal with this problem last week. All I needed was a new injector. I ended up getting quick couplers put on either end so I can run 50 feet of hose from the machine, throw in the injector, and then run another 50 to the gun if i want. I got a fixed 5/1 ratio plug in it. Only cost me $40 and should last two seasons.

Michael Kreisle
06-25-2009, 08:14 AM
Check your trigger gun also. It should be rated at at least 12 gpm. The larger opening in the higher flowing guns help to lower any back pressure that can cause the downstreamer to draw less solution. With the 8 gpm machines, I use a 3-5 gpm Down streamer (General High Draw) and 0050-0060 tips and draw solutions like crazy up to 250 feet of hose.

plainpainter
06-25-2009, 08:52 AM
Jim, I dont know the physics behind "why" but for some reason the higher GPM machines draw less then the 4-5 GPM rigs. At least that is what I have read on the BB's

It's not that the smaller machines 'draw' better - it's that under atmospheric pressure, only so much liquid is going to get shoved through a downstreamer.
So when you start seeing that 80-84 ozs per minute is about the max flow one of these suckers can move. Then you can understand that a larger machine will introduce more water and therefore dilute the chemical more. You can increase the pressure differential that the downstreamer sees by using a delavan to supply the chemical - then you will see even better flow figures.

Personally even when you are sucking 80 ozs. per minute. A five gallon bucket only lasts 8 minutes of actual downstreaming time. In other words if you have a 5gpm machine sucking at 7:1. You will only have 8 minutes worth of actual soaping time before your 5'er is empty - and personally that's way too fast for me.

Ken Fenner
06-25-2009, 03:06 PM
For the most potent mix via downstreaming, use a 2-3 gpm rated downstreamer regardless of your machine size.

plainpainter
06-26-2009, 09:46 AM
Bob doesn't carry them - but General even makes a 1-2gpm injector. I fooled around with the 3 sizes Bob carries - and I don't remember pulling more chem than with the 3-5 gpm injector. I'll experiment again - but I don't see much use in getting the chems that strong other than for downstreaming strippers.

Ken Fenner
06-26-2009, 11:06 AM
I'll have to double check but I am fairly certain i just got a 2-3 gpm from him.

Yes, the reason for stronger downstream ratios is only for deck stripping and for maintenance treating of roofs.

plainpainter
06-26-2009, 01:06 PM
Yes, the reason for stronger downstream ratios is only for deck stripping and for maintenance treating of roofs.

I agree, for this it makes a lot of sense, for house washing - I can clean with 17:1 with ease. Even really bad spots - you can pre-treat them way before you ever get to that side - and then continually spot treatment as you are doing other things. 4:1 downstream ratios would come in ultra handy for deck stripping. Mixing F-18 at 24 ozs. per gallon - that would be 5 ozs per gallon on the deck - that takes care of the majority of alot of stripping scenerios. Not to mention the flooding action of downstreaming doesn't translate equally to pump up applications and hvlp applications. I'd bet 5 ozs/gallon downstreamed is about as effective as 8-10 ozs/gallon from a pump up if not better.