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Should Filters be tested to set universal standards ?

In 1992 ish, I built my filtration unit at a cost of $72,000 and some change. Back then, no one could tell me if this filter wash going to comply with the requirements for discharge. We built it and rolled the dice and it paid off.

Today, we see many manufactures saying that their filter is the most advanced, best built and most cost effective, but what are they really saying?

The purpose of a filter is to take particles out of the flow ( "Flow" meaning water in most cases ) and suspend them. Allowing clean water to flow out from the unit.

This is where it gets tricky....

Recently I was bidding on a parking garage. A competitor had their own filter as well. My filter was 24 ft long with a capacity of filtering about 40 GPM and suspending particles of up to 50-100 gallons before a clean out would be necessary. My competitors on the other hand, Had several under the counter gallon size filters. We both had an active carbon filter, we both had a cartridge filter, in fact they were almost 65% the same elements of filtration, however his capacity was about 2 gallons. When we brought this issue up, he replied that he was going to empty the units on the job and/ or replace the cartridges when clogged. This would of been a very long and time consuming endeavor.

My point here is that his units had the similar spec's as mine when 10 gallons of water went through them. However, his was for a restaurant use and NOT for garage cleaning.

When shopping for a filtration unit, one must think of the application one is using the filter for. The bigger the area, the bigger the filter is needed. In fact, our filter which is about 17 years old now, is a bit too small for our other equipment. The fact of the matter is, our filter, when in combination with our pressure washer units, coinciding with a fire hose rinsing, cannot keep up. A filtration unit of 80-100 gallons per minute is going to be required in the near future. The cost currently will be over $135,000.

What I am trying to say here is this, " If you are going to clean a drive thru and nothing but a drive thru, then you can get away with a 2 to 5k system in general. If you were to do several large gas pads or a few shopping centers, then a 20 to 40+ k unit may be needed. Parking garages... the sky is the limit.

Don't be fooled by someone saying that these are the specs so therefore this unit will do the job. As you filter, your unit will pick up particles out from the flow. The filter is designed to get clogged in time. If your filtration elements are small or limited, your flow rate will decrease quickly thus slowing your cleaning abilities. ( No filtration, no pressure washing) You will need to "Dump" that class II Hazardous waste at some point. If you are on the job, you would have to stop when full, and go to an approved depot to dump it. Time is money and this WILL take allot of time, perhaps most of the day.

The bigger filters allow you to clean a much larger area or much more smaller areas, without this worry being clogged.... the need to dump the waste at a depot that maybe 20 to 40 miles from your work area. Time that is wasted.


Thats my 2 cents !


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Ron Musgraves

Past President
Staff member
Should Filters be tested to set universal standards ?

If your going to wite or have a BMP of course they should. So Should regulations about transport of hazordous waste.

Good luck, your going to have to get filter manufactures involed to help the process with goverment.
 
My concern without getting too far into this, was the filters should be standardize for the job they are qualified to do. I understand Ron that you do not use you reclamation unit on your standard jobs, though you do have one. My point here was "Should a manufacture say that my 8 oz filter cartridge is good for Parking Garage cleaning or should that industry say No this is stamped ( Standardized ) for cleaning only small size jobs such as a single oil spot.

You know Ron, we can get very technical on the laws as we have done in the past. ( California VS Arizona ) At the end, you may or may not agree with what was said or what the laws are here in California. The fact is that I believe that the industries manufactures should inform their customers that there filters have limitations, some more than others. Since 1992, some parts of California has made it a requirement to have a filtration unit while pressure washing... some 17+ years now. I am sure Arizona required filtration back in 1992 as well.

As you know Ron, we are going on our 21st year in the Garage Cleaning Business and have been required, by Law, to have a filtration unit since 1992 that was independently LAB tested. A cost of over $2,000 after we built the filtration unit. This testing goes on even now, about every few years, we must comply and test our filtration units at our own expense if so asked by the local authorities.

By the way, thank you for your input over here at UAMCC. If you've noticed, I am still helping contractors over at PWI because I believe in PWI, however I will be posting here until we clear up some issues.
 

Ken Fenner

Active member
Jim, great information.

Let me make sure I am understanding your viewpoint. You believe there should be filtration standards set based upon efficiency. Lets say you and I compete for the same job and I have Setup B that you described above. Are you saying I should be eliminated from the bid process because of substandard equipment? The way i read your post, we could both get the job done. You would be there for eight hours. I would be there for three days. I would think a guy in your shoes would love that?
 

Ron Musgraves

Past President
Staff member
Jim, great information.

Let me make sure I am understanding your viewpoint. You believe there should be filtration standards set based upon efficiency. Lets say you and I compete for the same job and I have Setup B that you described above. Are you saying I should be eliminated from the bid process because of substandard equipment? The way i read your post, we could both get the job done. You would be there for eight hours. I would be there for three days. I would think a guy in your shoes would love that?


EPA terms it would be calibration.....
 

Ron Musgraves

Past President
Staff member
Ron, could setup B do the job? Would it just be slower or is there more to it than that?

I think if the standard is set how its achieved doesnt matter. So YES

We have alot of guys here Scaring people. I have been called into meetings with customers showing them they are comply with all the laws and regulations.
 
I think if the standard is set how its achieved doesnt matter.

I agree with this statement, however, if you have a filter that is clearly unable to remove the particles from the water and in the volume that is required, you are inviting mischief.



For example:


I am a contractor. I bid the contract for $25,000. ALWAYS IN MY EXPERIENCES of 20 years, the garage needs to be finished by X time, usually in 2 to 5 days. Because of my limited capacity of the filter, I overload it and the filter over flows or stops working and the cleaning water, which sometimes takes as much as 20 OR MORE minutes to reach from the cleaning area to the lower levels where the filter is, starts to back up. We are talking hundreds if not thousands of gallons of class II hazardous waste.

Basically I am over my head and beyond the capacity of the filter in question. My filter cartridges are wasted and cannot be readily fixed without buying replacements. It is the weekend at 1:00 AM and my local dealer will not be open till Monday for replacement parts and the necessary back flush and I have a deadline.

This has happened so many times. I see contractors in trouble over their heads. The companies come and go.
 
Just a note; the reason why I talk about this EPA talk is because I live it. People who talk with me or have met me know that I would never turn someone in for writing something on the boards. All I am trying to do is increase the awareness of what is happening here in California.

As Ron has said so many times over the past months, Arizona is soooooo much more restrictive than California.

If you read my posts and say, boy thats just California, think again. For some in other parts of the country, it may take 10 years or more before it comes to your neck of the woods.... but it is coming.

As Ron has mentioned several times, I do work with the environmental agencies almost every week. I have to.... its my job. If I did sidewalks, I would probable never have the need to talk with them. However that is not the case. I do parking structures, with that said, the agencies have to show up and inspect our filter and run off during the job site. They show up at all times during the job.

Do I have a personal relationship with them, no. Do they come to my home, NO. Do they have my cell number YES and thats where it stops.

The posts I write is for your benefit and the industries. I make nothing by informing you of whats around the corner. I am not here to say yours is better than thou. Frankly I could care less.

What I am interested in is awareness. With this knowledge MAYBE we all can increase our cents per sq footage. I would love to see all of us making .24 cent a sq ft instead of the 1.3 cents as some charge... wouldn't you?

I prefer knowledge and preparedness over, a surprise and a fine, any day of the week.

Anyway, now you know.

Thats my 2 cents !
 

Ron Musgraves

Past President
Staff member
As Ron has said so many times over the past months, Arizona is soooooo much more restrictive than California.

If you wash a car in the street you are subject to fine. If you drain your pool in the street your subject to a fine.

If you run a garden hose and clean your sidewalk at your home your subject to fine.

Arizona I can not say has more restrictions, because I dont care about learning yours at this point.

CWA is a federal act passed. All States comply unless they have written practices that tell you the requirements. ( period)

Are the BMP's writted unjustly? Yes we have seen this many times and I hope the UAMCC does there part to be responsible for proper BMP's and follow guidelines others have written that are Sensible.
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Carlos Gonzales

New member
If you wash a car in the street you are subject to fine. If you drain your pool in the street your subject to a fine.

If you run a garden hose and clean your sidewalk at your home your subject to fine.

Arizona I can not say has more restrictions, because I dont care about learning yours at this point.

CWA is a federal act passed. All States comply unless they have written practices that tell you the requirements. ( period)

Are the BMP's writted unjustly? Yes we have seen this many times and I hope the UAMCC does there part to be responsible for proper BMP's and follow guidelines others have written that are Sensible.
.

This is where I jump in guys. I am asking lets keep this on topic...filters. Jim...with all due respect...lets not bring Ron or AZ in this....this topic has nothing to do with that state in particular. Some of us are aware of the "friction" of late on other BBS.....I don't want it shoveled over here.

Both of you are members of this BBS and both of you are VERY compassionate about your work...so the posturing is understandable to a degree. However, I asked both of you to sustain a level of professionalism that I know both of you can muster up.

Ron..I am right with you regarding the CWA. You know the years and years that we in the industry walked around asking "how come" and "why" relating to this subject. The UAMCC today is in a "watch and observe" mode. We involved ourselves with Charlotte because we were asked to do so. At the end of the day it was the right choice on what we did and I am very pleased of the outcome thus far.

Let's control our passsion on these posts gentleman. And if I haven't mentioned it...I trust that all of you will have a great 4th of July.
 

Ron Musgraves

Past President
Staff member
This is where I jump in guys. I am asking lets keep this on topic...filters. Jim...with all due respect...lets not bring Ron or AZ in this....this topic has nothing to do with that state in particular. Some of us are aware of the "friction" of late on other BBS.....I don't want it shoveled over here.

Both of you are members of this BBS and both of you are VERY compassionate about your work...so the posturing is understandable to a degree. However, I asked both of you to sustain a level of professionalism that I know both of you can muster up.

Ron..I am right with you regarding the CWA. You know the years and years that we in the industry walked around asking "how come" and "why" relating to this subject. The UAMCC today is in a "watch and observe" mode. We involved ourselves with Charlotte because we were asked to do so. At the end of the day it was the right choice on what we did and I am very pleased of the outcome thus far.

Let's control our passsion on these posts gentleman. And if I haven't mentioned it...I trust that all of you will have a great 4th of July.

Filters and Calibration of the filter in the equipment will play a part as BMP's get careless.

Jim wants the standards raised, I say lets take it all the way to the top. If the standard pass a certain point I will be for maximum containment and requirements.

The filters of course are the steps twords calibration requirements.

In terms that people understand is the same Laws Weights and measures are under. Its very possible that each state, city or county could regulate the calibration. The filters will determine the requirements and the measure and the standards we should practice.

I was not battering with Jim, he is still learning alot of this and doesnt realise that what he is shooting for will shut him down yet. I will not allow a false BMP to be written any place in the country if i can help it. Its a promise not a threat.


Carlos, NC was fine. I'm not the other people who think the UAMCC should not be involved. The UAMCC should represent us responsibly in any situation around the US.

This very question is and oportunity for the UAMCC to form a EVIRO team that consults outside experts to give advice. ( keep in mind I'm not talking about contract experts or dist experts) I'm talking engineers that have field tested products and can give a bias opionion on the questions asked.

Yes,i have a passion. I have seen contractors loose everything when BMP's are written wrong. I have taken oath to never allow this to happen again if I can.

Filters should have standards, how high? I'm not engineer and dont have the data to tell you. I'm agaist reusable filters, cross contamination if to high. Agaist sand filters also.....disposible is the only way i see practicality.
 
Filters should have standards, how high? I'm not engineer and don't have the data to tell you. I'm against reusable filters, cross contamination if to high. Agaist sand filters also.

I am glad Ron and I agree on this issue.

Look, already most of California and other states tests ALL discharges into the sewer lines for product that may be contaminated or over the safe levels for discharge. ALL sanitation districts require this to protect their treatment plants facilities. THIS IS NOTHING NEW. It is already in affect for the last 22 years or more.

However, what I am concerned about is not the one who passes the test, but the one who is under the impression that his filter is to capacity to do the work. You can get almost any filter to filter 1,000 gallons. We use almost 40,000 gallon +/- a day of the nastiest stuff you have seen...and boy is the order strong near the filter.

What I am trying to get across here is that the filters should say something like this:

Filter A

capacity of 800 gallon per 8 hours of work

Total life expedience before recharging (40 hours)

80% effective for removal of the required chemicals xyz

Meets or exceeds sanitation requirements of CODE A ,B, C. ( The Sanitation Dept determines how restrictive they need the filter to be for their area. )

Cost per gallon filtered ( .16 ) MAX PER GALLON

Estimated Annual costs for maintenance at every six months ( $7,653)


This would take ALL the guess work out of it. You will not rely on a sales person who is trying to make a buck off you or a company that knows their product is not up to your standards needed for the job at hand.

The auto industry dose it for: mileage per gallon, the difference between trucks 1500 and a 6500 Ford. We look at the spec's all the time.However both trucks have wheels, seats, steering wheel and an engine with head/ tail lights. But they are spec for different needs.

Cat equipment dose it for capacity

Construction units dose it for safety issues

Trailer manufactures dose it for both capacity and safety

Oil manufactures dose it so you can buy the right oil for your needs.

This is a way to standardize the filtration units. This is a good thing so that we as an industry do not get Ripped off because we did not understand what proper equipment to buy for the task at hand.

Otherwise your get someone telling you that this Ford Pinto with a HD rear end has the same towing capabilities as a Ford 550 only it is more compact and gets way better gas mileage.

How would you know if there was no standardization and specs on them both?

Right now, that is the way the filtration units are. We simply do not know unless you have 10/20/25 years experience.

I am proposing that my knowledge be shared with all of you. So you will know what I know when shopping for a filter just by looking at a sticker on the unit.

Buy implying this, I an hurting the ones, including me, who is successful in reclamation on a very large scale. Some will not want this information shared and for good reason.... competition.
 
I did the research, if anything, this standardization would raise the asking price for the cleaning of the parking garages throughout the country. It would give us a specialty field unique to the industry. It would stop all of those who think they maybe qualified and later realize they are not when something wrong happens, which only hurts the industry as a whole.

Due to this guys business name which includes the words "Pressure Washing", then that's what people would remember next time. That Pressure washer %^* who screwed up.

That's what hurts all of us.
 

Ron Musgraves

Past President
Staff member
This is where I jump in guys. I am asking lets keep this on topic...filters. Jim...with all due respect...lets not bring Ron or AZ in this....this topic has nothing to do with that state in particular. Some of us are aware of the "friction" of late on other BBS.....I don't want it shoveled over here.

OK...............
 
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