• As of January 1, 2018 The brand new logo that was created and released in 2017 will be the only official logo in affect and allowed to be used on any electronic media however, any such media like truck wraps, stationary, and postcards will be grandfathered in. Contributing Members will be allowed to use the UAMCC logo in any advertising. Permission to use the logo otherwise must be in writing. Logos used in electronic formats (ie: Websites, forums, etc.) must be linked back to the member’s profile in the UAMCC directory. Contributing Members are members that are paid and current with their dues. Please contact info@uamcc.org with any questions.

Friction Loss

Jim Cooney

New member
I recently learned a valuable lesson and thought I'd share my experience. My business has expanded and i have been landing numerous 75,000+ square foot projects. My 3500 PSI, 6 GPM machine was capable of doing the work, but since my target market was beginning to flourish, I decided to invest in a super rig capable of major production.

After about a month of research, I decided on and purchased 2 Hydro Tek SCU35009VAF skids (3500 PSI @ 8.8 GPM). Also bought 2 more surface cleaners, went with the Hydro Twister Contractor ANT3C. 550 gallon supply tank and a 35 gallon chemical tank. 2 reel stacks, one with 2 Hannay electric reels for my pressure hose and the other stack has 2 Cox reels for my 3/4" supply hoses. Added a generator for my lighting and mounted everything on a 7' x 16' tandem trailer, brakes on all 4 hubs.

First project I did with the new rig I noticed I was lacking PSI big time. I was booked solid for the next couple weeks, so I just worked with what I had, but never experience the production I was expecting. About 3 weeks ago, work slowed down some and allowed my some time to diagnose the problem.

The SCU35009VAF ships with 50' of 3/8" hose. I saved the 50' sections that came with the 2 skids and added 300' of continuous 3/8" non marring hose.

I first connected a pressure gauge at the end of the 300' and found I was getting just under 2500 PSI. Not acceptable ! I then checked at the end of the jumper hose, 3000 PSI. I tested out of the pump and was reading 3500 PSI. 1/2" hose from the pump, to the coil, but 3/8" out of the coil. Didn't make sense to me.

I researched friction loss differences when compared to ID of high pressure hose. http://h1.ripway.com/RAIAJim/H2O friction loss chart.pdf

I then spent almost an hour on the phone, with Hydro Tek and a couple hose manufactures. Hydro Tek explained to me that they ship the SCU35009VAF with 3/8" hose assuming the machine will be used as a dual gun skid. Was told if my plan was to use the machine as a single gun operation, then 1/2" hose would be mandatory.

So, long story short, I now have 250' of 1/2" 2 wire hose per reel. 3500 PSI at the end of the jumper hose and 3350 PSI at the end of the 250'. Haven't measured the GPM yet, but my ANT3C spinners are practically hovercrafts now.

A lesson learned. Worse case scenario could of been a competitor came to a jobsite which we had just completed at the previous 2500 PSI, did a demonstration at 3500 PSI and made my work look inadequate.

Thanks to those who have helped over the past month with your suggestions, feedback and knowledge. That's what makes this forum invaluable. I hope someone out there can learn from my experience.

I haven't taken any pictures yet with the 1/2" hose on, but here are what pictures I have during the build and the final results, taken several months ago.

http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/Jim_Cooney/Grime%20Busters%20Pressure%20Washing/New%20Trailer/?albumview=slideshow
 

Ken Fenner

Fuckhead
Sounds like a dream setup. You must have spit having to make that investment in the 1/2" hose. You had to change everything right? QC's swivels etc?
 

Jim Cooney

New member
Sounds like a dream setup. You must have spit having to make that investment in the 1/2" hose. You had to change everything right? QC's swivels etc?
Yup, changed out everything. At the business end of the hose, I kept my 3/8" Mosmatic swivels, ball valve and Hansen QC's. Could not justify spending all that additional $$$ for really no effect, since my spinners are all 3/8" from the gun to the swivel. I spent less than $500.00 out of pocket, the distributor covered the remaining costs.
 

Carlos Gonzales

New member
Jim . . . I must say very impressive. Not only the pics but you explaining the Friction Loss that your experienced. Great post from a solid contractor in AZ. Keep doing what your doing brother and don't look back. Mind if I make this thread a "sticky"? Your post offers some valuable insight..

Thanks again!
 

Jim Cooney

New member
Jim . . . I must say very impressive. Not only the pics but you explaining the Friction Loss that your experienced. Great post from a solid contractor in AZ. Keep doing what your doing brother and don't look back. Mind if I make this thread a "sticky"? Your post offers some valuable insight..

Thanks again!
Thanks Carlos. Sure, "sticky" away. That's why I have gravitated over to UAMCC, this forum is what I expect, contractors helping fellow contractors. None of the "bashing" I have experienced elsewhere.

I think the friction loss effect is important information. Who knows how many contractors out there assume they're hitting 3500 PSI when in fact they could be in the same position I found myself in, losing 1/3 of my PSI. A pressure gauge and a couple QC's are inexpensive. I suggest everyone have one as part of their equipment inventory. Not only to determine your actual PSI output, but to monitor your systems performance as part of your company's preventive maintenance program.

Competition is tougher than ever these days. I'd hate to learn a reputable UAMCC contractor lose a contract when the competition shows up at a project and out performs him/her because their equipment is dialed in correctly.

Thanks to Jim Gamble for the vast amount of knowledge he has shared with me, and the industry as well.
 

Carlos Gonzales

New member
"Sticky It Is". . . now if I can find that darn tape to stick it. . . Hey Jeff...you seen the tape. . .oh never mind I found it.

:biggrin:
 

Jeff LeCours

New member
The Silver Bullet...Man that is one nice set up

Really like it all, then the trailer color just tops the whole thing off. Electric hose reels mmmmmm its perty
 

Jim Chesmore

New member
that is a really nice set-up!! I had figured the smaller hose would cause some loss but not that much, wow!!

How hard is it pulling around the 1/2" hose?
 

John Tornabene

Member Guest
Monster Rig James!!! What is the weight capacity of that trailer?? I am thinking once again modifying my two enclosed trailers. I am tempting to cut one down in height so it can fit into parking garages. Still haven't figured how I am going to do that yet.
 

Jim Cooney

New member
that is a really nice set-up!! I had figured the smaller hose would cause some loss but not that much, wow!!

How hard is it pulling around the 1/2" hose?
Big difference with the 1/2" hose, but it's manageable. The 1/2" 2 wire hose weighs in at about .45 lbs a foot. I always have a man per machine who's primary function is dragging hose. I'll take that back, his primary function is to never, EVER let anyone run the hose over. Especially this 1/2" hose at damn near $3.00 a foot.
 

Jim Cooney

New member
Monster Rig James!!! What is the weight capacity of that trailer?? I am thinking once again modifying my two enclosed trailers. I am tempting to cut one down in height so it can fit into parking garages. Still haven't figured how I am going to do that yet.
7000 lb rated. I do not carry water off site, keep 100 gallons or less in the supply tank. I took the trailer over the scale and she weighed 6220 lbs, with approximately 100 gallons of water and my 35 gallon chemical tank full. That was with the 3/8" hose, guess I should reweigh it now to see what the difference is.
 

James VanHandle

UAMCC-Member
7000 lb rated. I do not carry water off site, keep 100 gallons or less in the supply tank. I took the trailer over the scale and she weighed 6220 lbs, with approximately 100 gallons of water and my 35 gallon chemical tank full. That was with the 3/8" hose, guess I should reweigh it now to see what the difference is.
Ok what do you clean with this rig?
I could run four flat surface cleaners from this.
What was your ending cost to set this up?
Looks nice!

Jimmy V
 

Jim Cooney

New member
Ok what do you clean with this rig?
I could run four flat surface cleaners from this.
What was your ending cost to set this up?
Looks nice!

Jimmy V
Flatwork, 50,000+ sq ft jobs. Average so far about 7500 sq ft per hour.

Running 4 off this set-up you'd kill your GPM and PSI. I downstream, spin the rinse without missing a beat. At damn near 9 GPM, rinsing takes no time at all. Inspect the area done before moving the rig, remove all the gum with low pressure and 250 degrees.

End cost.... About $30,000.
 

John Tornabene

Member Guest
7000 lb rated. I do not carry water off site, keep 100 gallons or less in the supply tank. I took the trailer over the scale and she weighed 6220 lbs, with approximately 100 gallons of water and my 35 gallon chemical tank full. That was with the 3/8" hose, guess I should reweigh it now to see what the difference is.
Hey Jim just be careful if you have to carry an additional 400 gallons of water in that tank(I'm presuming that its around a 500 gal tank on that trailer) the additional 400 gallons will almost put that trailer at 10,000lbs gross weight. The reason I say this is because I did many many jobs where I needed to carry more water and I also had 3500lb rated dual axles and I almost broke the axles because of that. So I had to put in 5000+ axles in that trailer to support the water weight and all the equipment in there.

There were some accounts I had that had no water hook ups and also some accounts where the water could not keep up with my one powerwasher running at 11gpm's and the other two together running at 7gpms. Thats 18gpm's total and you can see how fast that tank could drain.
 
Ok I understand a little of the friction loss. Here is my question if you running 5.5 gpm 4000psi do you still have friction loss with 3/8 hose or do you notice friction loss more so when you get up in the larger pumps.
 

James VanHandle

UAMCC-Member
Flatwork, 50,000+ sq ft jobs. Average so far about 7500 sq ft per hour.

Running 4 off this set-up you'd kill your GPM and PSI. I downstream, spin the rinse without missing a beat. At damn near 9 GPM, rinsing takes no time at all. Inspect the area done before moving the rig, remove all the gum with low pressure and 250 degrees.

End cost.... About $30,000.
Same here brother! Lots of gpm . The problem we have been having is keeping water in the tanks. You darn near need a fire hydrant near by(doing that tonight)to hook to.8.6 gpmx 4 =34 gal min. We can run about 15-20min from a 550gal tank.
 

Jim Cooney

New member
Ok I understand a little of the friction loss. Here is my question if you running 5.5 gpm 4000psi do you still have friction loss with 3/8 hose or do you notice friction loss more so when you get up in the larger pumps.
Per the chart you will lose approximately 150 PSI every 100' of hose you run, plus another 5% for each coupler.
 

Jim Cooney

New member
Same here brother! Lots of gpm . The problem we have been having is keeping water in the tanks. You darn near need a fire hydrant near by(doing that tonight)to hook to.8.6 gpmx 4 =34 gal min. We can run about 15-20min from a 550gal tank.
Yes sir, water consumption is a major issue. Hydrant draw, or sometimes I find a 2" backflow preventor and feed 1 of my supply lines off of that. I do 1 complex, a bit over 100,000 sq ft, 2 separate 4 story buildings. Am able to draw 1 supply line off of each building and works great. But some hose bibs only put out 5 GPM.

On new projects I survey the water supply situation before we are scheduled to show-up, then I have a hydrant meter or whatever else I need to get the production I'm looking for.
 
Top